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23 Jul · Fri 2004

What if Mozilla were to win in the end?

Another story from "BlogOn2004" today.

Some folks from Microsoft were presenting on the fine work they've done with Channel 9 (rant...the videos don't work on my Mac or presumably on Linux, but they looked great on the demo)...

Anyway, the presenter was doing his pitch in a polished way and at one point he said he wanted to show us a "really cool" feature and he looked up into the audience and said "Show of hands...How many of you use Internet Explorer?". Probably 99 times out of 100 when he asks that question all the hands go up, right? Well first there was a pause and then a giggle and then a whoop of laughter as the audience looked around and realized that NO ONE had raised a hand. The presenter was thrown off his mark, but he recovered and said, "Wow! Okay how many of you wish we'd fix IE so you could use it?"

Still no hands....

Informal survey afterwards said the Windows users in the crowd were all using the latest Firefox. Wouldn't it be amazing if Mozilla ended up winning in the end?

@ 08:28 PM PDT

Comments:

ohhhhh ... i love this one. a gem. a trend. a wave. it's happening.

Posted by gonzo on July 23, 2004 at 09:59 PM PDT #

Um, I was on stage and watching and I saw about 15% of the people raising their hands. Small, yes, but far from "no one."

Posted by Robert Scoble on July 24, 2004 at 12:31 AM PDT #

[Trackback] life is good. Java == platform independence XML == application independence JXTA == network independence Secure End-to-End Computing in my ears : Gang of Four/A Brief History of the Twentieth Century/It's Her Factory

Posted by GonzoMoFo on July 24, 2004 at 01:06 AM PDT #

I defer to Rob on the "nobody" comment since he was indeed onstage, but from the absolute back (audience right) where I was sitting we couldn't see any hands.

Posted by Danese Cooper on July 24, 2004 at 01:51 AM PDT #

This is a quite good news.

From the features, the performance and the usability, Mozilla (Firefox/Thunderbird) is equal or even better than IE (Outlook email) in some areas. The current issues are how to help the foundation to move quickly and try to take the market share as much as possible. Will Mozilla win in the end? Let's see and hope so.

Posted by Henry Jia (贾宏宇) on July 24, 2004 at 06:42 AM PDT #

"Wouldn't it be amazing if Mozilla ended up winning in the end?" Not really. I'd prefer that *ALL* apps supporting open standards win.

Posted by Anonymous on July 24, 2004 at 12:13 PM PDT #

Fascinating. Concerning the videos, if you can fish out the URLs (my aggregator shows them to me from the Channel 9 site feed), you'll find they can be presented by RealPlayer 10 as well as Microsoft Media Player. RealPlayer might provide more options for Linux and Apple.

Posted by orcmid on July 25, 2004 at 12:44 PM PDT #

I was also in the audience and I think Robert is underestimating -- more than 15% of the people raised their hands. There definitely was a pause before most people did; I interpreted it as the audience wondering whether it was hip to admit IE usage at a *blogging* conference. Apparently a reasonable thing to consider!

There were more hands for the "fix it" question than the "use it" question, too.

Posted by Marc Hedlund on July 25, 2004 at 02:16 PM PDT #

I use firefox at home, I would still prefer ie fixed as I know quite a bit about ie and attendant technologies, also Ie is mandated at my work, a bad decision that, but a very large governmental organiation.

Posted by bryan on July 25, 2004 at 02:38 PM PDT #

[Trackback] Lastig momentje voor een Microsoftmeneer op de BlogOn2004. Hij vroeg de hele zaal de hand op te steken als ze Internet Explorer gebruikten. Gegiechel als er g��n handen in de lucht gaan. Vraagt hij wie graag zou willen dat Internet...

Posted by Komma Punt Log - briljant en bescheiden on July 25, 2004 at 02:59 PM PDT #

I also would love Mozilla to win, it is so much better than IE BUT sad thing... IT does STEAL to much MEMORY... still Mozilla rules...

Posted by Jen on July 25, 2004 at 03:26 PM PDT #

'"Wouldn't it be amazing if Mozilla ended up winning in the end?" Not really. I'd prefer that *ALL* apps supporting open standards win.' When Mozilla wins, open standards win, so do all apps supporting them. (note: use of "when" is intentional".)

Posted by Greg K Nicholson on July 25, 2004 at 04:23 PM PDT #

[Trackback] Although a good laugh, this isn't a question that needs to be asked.What if Mozilla were to win in the end? [via]The real question is: When will most users realise that there are better products than IE?This is not a war that can be ultimately won or ...

Posted by Different, just like everybody else on July 25, 2004 at 05:17 PM PDT #

It's a myth to believe that 99% percent of people use IE. As a web developer, a large portion of people do use IE, but that number is declining. As a Mac user, I find Mozilla/Firefox to be good in terms of supporting the latest standards, but there's room for improvement in terms of OS citizenship. Let's see more native support for OS-supplied interface elements and the app will gain even more usage.

Posted by Ted Wood on July 25, 2004 at 05:20 PM PDT #

I don't know why you lied about the conference, but you can use http://www.maxthon.com/en/index.htm to use a better IE. I was using Firefox but now I switch to Maxthon, it simply rocks. Mozilla will not win at the end, because the advocates of the browser is mostly from slashdot who lie about facts all the time.

Posted by Alex on July 25, 2004 at 06:10 PM PDT #

The only thing that matters is that standards win. Once all browsers are standards-compliant, Internet users and web designers will be the winners. And we will have a choice of useable browsers ...

Posted by Ben on July 25, 2004 at 06:32 PM PDT #

The biggest problem with IE is inherent in the design of the Microsoft HTML control. Any browser (or any other application, such as Outlook) that uses the MS HTML control to render rich text can be no more than marginally less risky than IE. This will remain the case so long as Microsoft retains the tight binding between IE and the Windows Explorer, and shares the same file type and protocol handlers with it. And of course if Microsoft were to do that they would lose so much face, given that they've asserted for the past seven years that it's absolutely necessary to tie the desktop and the browser together in this fashion... they even risked having the company split up in an antitrust action rather than admit their basic design was inherently insecure. And Apple's started down the same path with the way WebKit uses the same set of bindings through LaunchServices that Finder and other local applications use internally.

An Open Letter to Apple

I hope KDE's KMelion does a better job of keeping the browser component in a sandbox.

Posted by Peter da Silva on July 25, 2004 at 06:37 PM PDT #

[Trackback] Mozilla Firefox may only be a pre-release version, but it's already making inroads, at least in blogging circles: Anyway, the presenter was doing his pitch in a polished way and at one point he said he wanted to show us...

Posted by First Weblog on July 25, 2004 at 06:52 PM PDT #

What if neither Moz nor IE won? What if there was a better browser? http://www.kbcafe.com/juice/ Don't tell anyone ;)

Posted by Randy Charles Morin on July 25, 2004 at 08:56 PM PDT #

[Trackback] Other than being the sort of event that would make even the hardiest Microsoft presenter blanch, this is perhaps the strongest indicator I've heard of the inroads Firefox is making into the windows desktop. Admittedly, we're not talking about a...

Posted by Fibble.org on July 25, 2004 at 10:47 PM PDT #

Winning what? The browser war? Let's focus on creating standards across all browsers and leave the bitter feud out of it.

Posted by Michael on July 25, 2004 at 11:04 PM PDT #

"Let's focus on creating standards across all browsers and leave the bitter feud out of it."

Um, I thought the standards have been there for quite some time already... For my point of view, all there is to fight for anymore is the marketshare. :)

Posted by k on July 25, 2004 at 11:34 PM PDT #

God why would anyone use explorer on purpose? At our company of around 300 users we gave everyone a choice. 95% of the PC users now use Firefox as their main browser, the ones who use Explorer mainly have stuck with it because of a site that is incompatible with other browsers. Our Mac users almost all use Safari as a primary browser. The only guy I know who uses Explorer all the time by choice designs websites. Since Explorer is so non-standards friendly he codes first on Explorer knowing that if he can get it to work there using all compliant code that it will breeze through all the other browsers.

Posted by timbo on July 25, 2004 at 11:59 PM PDT #

I don't know why you lied about the conference, but you can use http://www.maxthon.com/en/index.htm to use a better IE. I was using Firefox but now I switch to Maxthon, it simply rocks.

Maxthon looks like a netcaptor type "browser"--it uses IE's components to render html. Correct?

If so, then it's not much of an IE replacement, since most people who avoid IE do so because of its security holes.

Posted by mike on July 26, 2004 at 12:37 AM PDT #

fix IE? You mean rewrite? hehe. The only time I show people IE is to show them how much better FF and Opera (albeit not free) are in comparison. Most Mac users I know still use IE5.1 esp. all the design studios around here... how sad is that? Best move for IE? Make IE open source? Remove ActiveX completely?

Posted by Ihad on July 26, 2004 at 12:38 AM PDT #

It's a myth to believe that 99% percent of people use IE. As a web developer, a large portion of people do use IE, but that number is declining. Posted by Ted Wood on July 25, 2004 at 05:20 PM PDT
================================= See: LINK

WebSideStory Inc.'s real focus is its on-demand Web analytics services for business customers, said Erik Bratt, the company's corporate communications director. But the data collected from thousands of Web sites and 20 million to 40 million users a day has shown WebSideStory that there is a small decline in Internet Explorer use from 95.73 percent on June 4 to 94.73 percent on July 6 [2004].

Posted by Jojo on July 26, 2004 at 12:48 AM PDT #

[Trackback] Is firefox finally winning the game ? Apparently, at BlogOn2004, the Microsoft speaker had a hard time when he asked how many people in the audience was using IE. Only a few hands up...Scoble also admitted that it was not a lot ! This is just the begin...

Posted by dblookup.info on July 26, 2004 at 12:52 AM PDT #

All these people that only use one browser. I use Mozilla 90% of the time, IE 9% of the time and Opera whenever I want to check something using my GPRS phone. Moreover, I use Mozilla and IE at the same time when I'm doing web development, or generally needing to see our website from two perspectives at once (ie; staff/student).

Posted by krisjohn on July 26, 2004 at 01:15 AM PDT #

I sincerely doubt that the audience of BlogOn is a representative sample of the population that uses web browsers. It may be indicative of an affluent and influential subset of users who have the luxury and proclivities to attend such gatherings, but that's still a tiny population of users.

Posted by ccm on July 26, 2004 at 01:47 AM PDT #

[Trackback] About the number of people using Internet Explorer at BlogOn2004" as told by Divablog Excerpt: Anyway, the presenter was doing his pitch in a polished way and at one point he said he wanted to show us a "really cool"

Posted by mrbrown on July 26, 2004 at 02:13 AM PDT #

I am actually really glad that the almighty microsoft got a kick in the teeth! GO THE UNDERDOG! :D : Help Desk Software

Posted by Help Desk Consultant on July 26, 2004 at 02:40 AM PDT #

heehee, look at Alex go! such a tiny brain!

Posted by realitybath on July 26, 2004 at 03:12 AM PDT #

[Trackback] Das DivaBlog (BTW: Allersch � rfstes Willkommen!) fragt: What if Mozilla were to win in the end? ;o) [Werner M. per Email]

Posted by Der Schockwellenreiter on July 26, 2004 at 04:56 AM PDT #

Nobody's "lying" here. Scoble gave his eyewitness account and Danese Cooper reiterated his. ("Danese" is a male name, isn't it?) And I love the effort to imply that people who use IE are just plain folks while everyone who uses alternate browsers is an effete, decadent snob ("affluent," "luxury," "proclivities").

Posted by Joe Clark on July 26, 2004 at 05:33 AM PDT #

[Trackback] There's an amusing entry over at DivaBlog where Danese Cooper relates a story about a wakeup call for Microsoft when they asked an audience how many of them used Internet Explorer. Anyway, the presenter was doing his pitch in a polished way and at...

Posted by Stupid Evil Bastard on July 26, 2004 at 06:54 AM PDT #

[Trackback] Good, damn good in fact. What if Mozilla were to win in the end?

Posted by What makes you happy ? on July 26, 2004 at 07:05 AM PDT #

Its pretty funny that this has turned into a debate about who is using what browser. Have you looked at Google Zeitgeist lately? The graph on browser usage there shows that IE is on a slight dip but still easily has 4 times the number of users of any other browser. Back to the original subject, I do think it would be nice if Mozilla won. I think its more likely that Microsoft will update IE a bit and it will continue to be the winner by default, because very few people care one way or the other, and IE is already installed on every Windows system.

Posted by rob on July 26, 2004 at 07:23 AM PDT #

[Trackback] Firefox was the dominant browser at the conference, which tripped up the Microsoft presenters.

Posted by Mike Steinbaugh on July 26, 2004 at 08:08 AM PDT #

About my name, see my blog on the topic. Its actually an Italian last name, (I'm told it means "Danish" in Italian) but my parents assumed it was an acceptable alternate to the traditional "Denise" spelling.

Posted by Danese Cooper on July 26, 2004 at 08:17 AM PDT #

I do use firefox, but the comparison is just dumb. IE has not been updated in over 2 years now... Its not anymore about Microsoft wanting to retain HTML/CSS Browser Monopoly What Sun/Fire fox should fear is WHY IE has not been updated :)

Posted by Anam Ika on July 26, 2004 at 08:21 AM PDT #

A friend of mine sent me a link to this page... also the same person who sent me info on Firefox. I think it's really kind of cool, and I'm not really a "tech" person. I tell everyone I know about Firefox. Pretty much my entire family uses Firefox now. We just got tired of viruses that made our searches not work and put porno all over our computers.

Posted by Rich on July 26, 2004 at 08:51 AM PDT #

[Trackback] Ha! I'm not the only one thinking IE is a pain in the a$$. I told ya IE screws things up... Altho it looks good in Safari, Firefox or any other browser, IE has it's own way of handling things...

Posted by Eight Degree on July 26, 2004 at 11:49 AM PDT #

Well Firefox has definitely got the cool factor and I would never rely upon WebSideStory for stats as they don't do proper measuring. For stats on the web, stick to netcraft or w3schools.com. These guys put Mozilla's share at around 20% (when counting all variants of the codebase including Netscape 6+) From June to July of 2004, it jumped 2 percentage points and Microsoft stats went down for the first time in history. Thank you CERT!

Posted by Xeno on July 26, 2004 at 01:02 PM PDT #

I hate to be the wet blanket, but honestly:

WHO CARES?

Use a browser your like. If that's IE, neat. If you prefer Firefox, swell. If you think the whole WIMP UI is still just a flash in the pan, then lynx is for you.

vi vs. emacs
battle of the *nix distros
Windows vs. Linux
Perl vs. Java
Java vs. .NET

and now we can add IE vs. Firefox. Just what the tech community needs, another holy war. This will give the Slashdot crowd something to talk about for years to come.

It's not an expression of your inner being. It's not a reflection of your cosmic aura. It's not a fashion statement. It's a browser. It's a piece of software. It's a tool. Get over yourself.

Posted by Craig Pfeifer on July 26, 2004 at 01:27 PM PDT #

Try Opera. Opera is smaller and faster than Mozilla, and every "cool!" feature that is implemented in Mozilla was done first, and better, in Opera.

Posted by Eric Blade on July 26, 2004 at 02:05 PM PDT #

Opera is great and has no flicker in case of <code>a:hover:after { content: "Blah!"; }</code>, but it still isn't fully equipped with all the standards. Firefox has better support of many CSS selectors. Sorry to be a nitpicker :P

Posted by Rob Mientjes on July 26, 2004 at 02:16 PM PDT #

"Show of hands how many of you use Solaris as your main desktop OS?" Well first there was a pause and then a giggle and then a whoop of laughter as the audience looked around and realized that NO ONE had raised a hand.

Posted by Meanie on July 26, 2004 at 06:45 PM PDT #

hmm.. I've tried firefox, opera, every version of mozilla, and continue to try every new piece of software I come across. My requirements for a browser are simple - it gives me a web page that works, when I browse to it, and the google toolbar works in it, and it's fast. I would change immediately to a faster browser. FireFox is not faster. I don't like tabs, and it takes tons more resources - so for my purposes, IE is just better. I would like a better browser, but there ain't none at the moment. (I haven't tried juice - just signed on to download it) And as for security - think a little bit - ie has been full of holes - we know that. But you've had millions of people looking for them - and we've had YEARS of them being fixed. Firefox is not just fairly new, fairly untried, but you can get at the source code! I would bet ANYONE my life savings that there are currently more security holes in FireFox! It's like we used to say back in the unix days - LS was probably the most bug-free program in existence, purely because so many people had used it so many times - well - there is no substitute for the experience IE has had, and the astronomically huge amount of effort and real intelligence that has been put in trying to break it - it's probably the most secure application in existence! But give me a noticeably faster browser, and I'll change tomorrow! Tabs are stupid - applications used to manage their own windows - then people realised it was better to hand it over to a Window Manager... WHY are we going backwards? Just get a better Window Manager - they're out there!

Posted by Darren Oakey on July 26, 2004 at 08:56 PM PDT #

Hey Darren, I'm not sure I agree with you -- but here are some comments based on working on a 1ghz 512 ram laptop with winXP professional: Firefox is way faster than IE for me on everything from launching the browsre to loading a page. While tabbed browinsg isn't the most revolutionary feature in the world, it is useful. The window manager cannot group your browser windows based on content, but you can have one browser window openw ith tabs for your news sites, and the other for reading e-mail. If there is a window manager that can let me organize this easily w/o cluttering up the task bar, please enlighten me. I will argue that Firefox is more secure because it is open source. Anyone in the world can look at the source code and find/fix security holes. How does this compare to Microsoft? Microsoft has a team of lesser size, dates to meet, etc. Whether they have 10 thousand users reading CNN versus 10 billion users reading CNN as "using their web browser" makes little difference on finding the security holes. Let's face it, if a bug isn't found by the Microsoft test team, then it will just sit there for years until some hackers try to exploit it. All this market share doesn't mean it has that many users looking for security exploits, it means it has that many lambs for the slaughter It gets worse. For every reason that Microsoft won the 1st browser war (tying it to the operating system) is increasingly becoming its biggest weakness. Here's a news flash: dumb users do not apply security updates. They turn on their computer, check their e-mail, oogle some porn, and then logoff after they get pissed off from too many pop-ups. So, they have all the security holes -- and those holes go right to the operating system, giving the hacker free reign. Furthermore, things like ActiveX controls allow spyware to slip in unnoticed. I'm sorry, but IE already takes up more resources (you just don't see some cause they're in the OS), but if you put in a virus scanner, and spyware/adware scanner -- it makes windows crawl. Also the whole "IE integrated into everything" also slows things down. Launch a web browser and have word embedded in it is both unusable and slows things down. Now, word gets embedded into Outlook as well. So you have outlook, IE, and MS word all strung together -- any network lag or application error can crash all of them at once. But hey, people are used to their computer crashing and not working. They lived with blue screens of death, they dont' know any better. Finally, you should check out update.mozilla.org -- it's got your googlebar, and a ton of other features that really bring your web browser alive in so many new ways.

Posted by John Doe on July 26, 2004 at 10:29 PM PDT #

Usability and speed on Firefox is better than on IE. I use both Mac and Windows, and on my Apple it's Safari that rules the web, so I looked for similar features and performance in my windows world and chose FireFox.
With respect to security, given time, if an Open source browser where to become the standard, then a single security hole, would have the same impact as one does currently in IE. If FireFox where the web standard, then malicious code would be developed to exploit it's weaknesses. Currently it's shielded by it's lack of prescence. The same can be said for the near absence of viruses for Mac OSX. If you're going to pick on someone, pick on the big guy.

Posted by Jason McLeod on July 27, 2004 at 09:24 AM PDT #

Apologies to Danese. I did try poking around to get a definitive read on her unique name, but apparently looked in the wrong places.

Posted by Joe Clark on July 27, 2004 at 10:04 AM PDT #

[Trackback] TALK ABOUT TOWN suggests that no one "in the know" admits to using Internet Explorer, even if they do. So I'm asking you, honestly now: Which browser?

Posted by molly.com on July 27, 2004 at 10:48 AM PDT #

Firefox and Safari should be the standard by which all others follow, they both have great implementation of standards. Microsoft almost always fucks up what they try and control, keep them away from web browsers.

Posted by Eric on July 27, 2004 at 10:58 AM PDT #

Just for the record IE was the first browser to incorporate full support for the W3C DOM Level 1, XML, CSS 1, and XSL standards.

Posted by Joe Marini on July 27, 2004 at 05:02 PM PDT #

[Trackback] http://blogs.sun.com/roller/comments/DaneseCooper?anchor=what_if_mozilla_were_to1 Wonder how many of them were using Opera. Too bad the general public still use IE obliviously....

Posted by LinkBlog on July 28, 2004 at 03:55 AM PDT #

What is it with this Alex guy? Like the last five blogs I have been on that mentioned Firefox and IE in the same posting have had him come on trolling. God I'd like to ban that guy from the internet completely. What a stupid troll.

As to the subject at hand, I think that as more users are made aware of the underlying issues with Internet Explorer, they will rush to switch browsers. Lack of standards compliance and lack of security ARE taking a toll on Microsoft, even if it seems small now, what starts as a snowball rolling down a mountain, soon turns into an avalanche.

Posted by Tristor on July 29, 2004 at 01:46 AM PDT #

[Trackback] Taken from Danese Cooper at Sun, She gives her experience at BlogOn 2004 attending a presentation/demo from Micro$oft. Apparently, the majority of the attendees prefer some other browser to IE. Her blog says that informally all those who didn't rai...

Posted by Elwing's Weblog on July 29, 2004 at 09:26 AM PDT #

[Trackback] This was just too cool for me not to spread. Danese Cooper writes in this entry about how a Microsoft employee at BlogOn 2004 giving a presentation asked for a show of hands from Internet Explorer users. Out of the...

Posted by [Si]dragon on July 29, 2004 at 09:43 AM PDT #

Regarding browser usage stats: be careful about going by the website logs to determine how many people use IE. I don't, but I do usually have my browser identify itself as IE because there's an annoying number of websites that actually check the ID and change behavior based on it. Usually, this breaks the page and sometimes the site simply refuses to serve pages at all. So, I have my browser lie and say it's IE. I'm probably not the only one.

Posted by John Fenderson on July 29, 2004 at 10:45 AM PDT #

<blockquote type=cite style='font-style: italic;'>Just for the record IE was the first browser to incorporate full support for the W3C DOM Level 1, XML, CSS 1, and XSL standards. You sure about that? .. I'm pretty sure that IE -doesn't- fully support CSS1.

Posted by Blu3 on July 30, 2004 at 01:02 PM PDT #

Hi, Blu3, read this - http://www.w3c.org/Style/CSS/#browsers 2000-03-27, but ie doesn't support XSL currently... and so on... ie suxx :)

Posted by borr on July 30, 2004 at 04:58 PM PDT #

Posted by Blu3 on July 30, 2004 at 06:08 PM PDT #

Just for the record IE was the first browser to incorporate full support for the <acronym title="World Wide Web Consortium">W3C</acronym> <acronym title="Document Object Model">DOM</acronym> Level 1, <acronym title="Extensible Markup Langage">XML</acronym>, <acronym title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym> 1, and <acronym title="XML Style Language">XSL</acronym> standards.
You sure about that? I�m pretty sure that <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym> doesn�t fully support <acronym title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym>1.

Correct. Internet Explorer only supports <acronym title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym>1 core, and even then its box model remains terribly broken. Its <acronym title="Extensible Markup Langage">XML</acronym> support is also broken in that it cannot properly handle some DTD syntax correctly. Try using <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym> with a complete <acronym title="Extensible Hypertext Markup Language">XHTML</acronym>1.1 preamble in your document <acronym title="Extensible Markup Langage">XML</acronym> declaration, DOCTYPE, et cetera). In cases where it actually tries to fetch the <acronym title="Document Type Definition">DTD</acronym>, it chokes on parsing. As for <acronym title="XML Style Language">XSL</acronym>, don�t even get me started listing the problems with it. (The crux of all this is the every-so-buggy <acronym title="Microsoft Extensible Markup Langauge">MSXML</acronym> library which hasn�t worked correctly sincs its inception.)

Posted by [Si]dragon on August 02, 2004 at 06:36 AM PDT #

[Trackback] Strange results from a poll in web developer conference...

Posted by Pauses Caf� on August 02, 2004 at 07:52 AM PDT #

Correct. Internet Explorer only supports CSS1 core, and even then its box model remains terribly broken. When IE6 shipped, it was in fact at the time the first browser to support the standards I listed. Did it have bugs? Does it still? Yes, of course, but show me a browser that doesn't.

Posted by Anonymous on August 03, 2004 at 02:20 PM PDT #

You sure about that? .. I'm pretty sure that IE -doesn't- fully support CSS1.

At the time, it was the most complete support for CSS1 Core that there was.
Posted by Anonymous on August 03, 2004 at 02:21 PM PDT #

Armor2net Personal Firewall software provides a complete spectrum of Internet security and Internet privacy for computers. The program protects the computer from hackers, data thieves, and other Internet-based dangers. For more information, please visit: http://www.armor2net.com
Posted by Peter Jackson on August 06, 2004 at 01:24 AM PDT #

Anonymous said that IE supports CSS1, then when someone else pointed out that it only supports core CSS1, and the support that it does have is broken, the anonymous person replied that "well, I said it supports CSS.. and any software has bugs". . Well, let's try this one: You said CSS1. CSS1 is all of CSS1, not just the "core" of CSS1. It's not a smorgasbord of options where you can pick and choose what you want to support. You either support it all, or you don't support it all. And a severely broken version (not just a little buggy) doesn't really count as support now, does it? Also stated that it supports XSL, which apparently it doesn't (i've not ever heard of "XSL", so I'm not at liberty to comment), and I know that until 6.0, the DOM Level 1 was severely broken, and it had already existed fully functional and working in .. uh.. hmm.. At least in Mozilla's first or second release, but I thought that NS4 actually had full DOM Level 1.. I could be wrong on that though, I wasn't doing web work then.
Posted by Eric Blade on August 08, 2004 at 03:31 PM PDT #

Anonymous said that IE supports CSS1, then when someone else pointed out that it only supports core CSS1, and the support that it does have is broken, the anonymous person replied that "well, I said it supports CSS.. and any software has bugs". . Well, let's try this one: You said CSS1. CSS1 is all of CSS1, not just the "core" of CSS1. It's not a smorgasbord of options where you can pick and choose what you want to support. You either support it all, or you don't support it all. And a severely broken version (not just a little buggy) doesn't really count as support now, does it? Also stated that it supports XSL, which apparently it doesn't (i've not ever heard of "XSL", so I'm not at liberty to comment), and I know that until 6.0, the DOM Level 1 was severely broken, and it had already existed fully functional and working in .. uh.. hmm.. At least in Mozilla's first or second release, but I thought that NS4 actually had full DOM Level 1.. I could be wrong on that though, I wasn't doing web work then.
Posted by Eric Blade on August 08, 2004 at 03:31 PM PDT #

"Most" people using IE instead of the security holes should turn on automatic updates. An a conference full of web elites is hardly representative of web users at large. I hate to burst your open source bubble, but that 90% IE market share's not going away anytime soon. Firefox and friends will have to offer a great deal more than IE to gain market share. They don't at the moment for most users. And, unfortunately, if they do offer those better features the web at large won't use them because nearly all sites still have to support IE.
Posted by Matt on August 10, 2004 at 06:52 AM PDT #

Hi Matt. I agree that people still will use IE for a long time as long as they still use windows. But will we still use windows in the future ... no. I am sure that windows will not win. Granted that M$ have had a great last 10 years. I think the OSS model is far better and following standards is the clear winner in the long run. For my selve i use Mandrake linux and the firefox browser. I have used windows but it is not a good OS - so i dont use it anymore.
Posted by Michael Reib on August 11, 2004 at 01:58 AM PDT #

Hi Matt. I agree that people still will use IE for a long time as long as they still use windows. But will we still use windows in the future ... no. I am sure that windows will not win. Granted that M$ have had a great last 10 years. I think the OSS model is far better and following standards is the clear winner in the long run. For my selve i use Mandrake linux and the firefox browser. I have used windows but it is not a good OS - so i dont use it anymore.
Posted by Michael Reib on August 11, 2004 at 02:11 AM PDT #

[Trackback] DivaBlog writes about an interesting moment at BlogOn 2004. The [Microsoft] presenter was doing his pitch in a polished way and at one point he said he wanted to show us a "really cool" feature and he looked up into...
Posted by Mike Kruckenberg's Experiences and Observations on August 11, 2004 at 07:19 AM PDT #

I agree that people still will use IE for a long time as long as they still use windows. Software download Computer software review, game review
Posted by pop music, classical music on August 12, 2004 at 05:38 AM PDT #

French Firefox Firefox.fr
Posted by Firefox on August 27, 2004 at 12:19 PM PDT #

Quick tip for all you snails using IE for SSL sites. Firefox is twice as fast in my experience. Looks like MS did an awful job on the SSL stuff also. As for the discussion about standards - MS b**tardises standards [extend and ruin] and abuses it's position as market leader to destroy all competition. As a firefox user what I wan't is choice, that means educating idiot web designers not to use proprietary IE extensions meaning sites may not work in other browsers. Anyone who can't see the dangers in allowing proprietary software companies/licence holders to eat into the 'free and open standards infrastructure' of the web should stick to some company owned network and stay off the net.
Posted by Gary on September 24, 2004 at 03:41 AM PDT #

Mozilla & Safari are Part of the Problem; Speaker Panel to Address the Issue

One of the greatest ironies in business today seems only to be understood by those who have spent a significant amount of time trying to develop rich-GUI Web applications according to W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) standards. Ironically, Microsoft has done a far superior job of reliably implementing the core W3C standards than Mozilla, since about 1997. I have been working in this area for five years.

I believe that we sorely need competition in the Web browser market. But it must be finally said that the release of faulty Web browsers such as Mozilla and Safari as "ready for prime time" is damaging to the Web. I have spent a total of 23 months doing heavy client-side JavaScript almost all the time, including 15 in a 8-front-end developer team setting. Additionally, I've maintained active involvement in this type of software development since 1998.

The sad fact that seems so hard for most supporters of "choice on the Web" and open-standards to face is that everyone I know who has had a similar experience to mine in working with client-side JavaScript/DOM finds Mozilla and especially Safari absolutely maddening. These Web browsers should be released as "experimental-only" until their major bugs are fixed. I've filed several of them with Mozilla's BugZilla, but to the best of my knowledge none have been permanently fixed.

To illustrate, one of my favorite bugs is how Mozilla sometimes "doubles" all the HTML written to deeply nested markup containers (such as 'div'). To better bring the important implications of these issues to light, I am holding a Carnegie-Mellon-West Speaker Panel on the topic. I'm looking for more panelists who can speak from experience (business or technical) to this "controversial" issue. Please contact me at cbalz@andrew.cmu.edu if you have suggestions for panelists. So far, I have some very good speakers signed up for the panel. Please find the description of the panel below.

Announcement about a Speaker Panel on Current Web Browsers

As we continue to see rich-GUI Web software slide into proprietary formats, and the pressure on Microsoft to play nicely from legal battles ease, the time is right to address the future of the Web. I would like to invite you to come to a <a href="http://us.f607.mail.yahoo.com/ym/speaker%27%3Ehttp://west.cmu.edu/specialPrograms/speakers/">speaker panel at Carnegie-Mellon University's West Coast Campus, at Moffett Field (45 minutes south of San Francisco), entitled, "Back to Proprietary Client-Server, or Web Renaissance?", on November 10th, 2004, at 6:30pm.

Details:

In this panel, I would like to have the panelists speak to the following questions:

What role did open standards (specifically, HTTP and HTML) play in the initial adoption (from 1994 onward) of the Web and its development into a giant new business market and more?

How did these open standards come to take hold?� What were the major obstacles?� Was the driving force to adoption a mix of technological evangelism and market forces?�

Compare and contrast HTML to DHTML (Dynamic HTML) with the JavaScript binding.

Give your perspective on client-side Web software development, and its importance today on the Web.

What is the importance of Dynamic HTML and the binding to JavaScript on the Web today?

Do you view the application of OO techniques to JavaScript, particularly simulation of Java-like class-based inheritance in JavaScript, as helpful in deploying Web software?

Is JavaScript a more realistic choice on the Web than Java for the client-side of consumer Web applications, due to JavaScript's current near-ubiquity, lack of need for installation, fast start-up time, and security (especially, it's lack of a file API)?

Give your view of the pros and cons of server-centric Web development (i.e., JSP, ASP) as opposed to a Web based on the distributed application or client-server concept.�

What are the pros and cons to the consumer Web user, who needs high usability, interactivity, and speed, on dial-up and on high-speed?

What are the pros and cons to the server center, from the perspectives of IT (i.e., scalability), engineering, and security?

Why is it that the "other" Web browsers -- the non-Microsoft Web browsers -- do not support the W3C standards correctly enough to support building "next generation" Web applications based on public Web standards?

What is the impact of this situation, as we see rich-GUI Web applications migrate to proprietary formats such as Flash and IE-specific extensions?

What are the security implications of a Web highly fragmented among Flash browsers, Microsoft Longhorn Client browsers, Web-standard browsers, and Internet Explorer-specific Web sites?�

Would this amount to an unmanageable blizzard of security patches for consumers?

What can be done to improve the support of Web browsers for rich-GUI Web applications built solely on W3C standards?�

Would an industry consortium be an appropriate vehicle for this task?

Can the market alone, in its current state, take care of this situation?

Is technological evangelism needed?

Imagining a supportive climate for distributed Web applications built on Web standards, what market spaces would this create?

What would be the role of current vendors of traditional Web application frameworks, such as BEA, IBM, and Sun/Netscape?

Posted by Christopher M. Balz on September 30, 2004 at 11:05 AM PDT #

Corrected link to speakers' panel: http://west.cmu.edu/specialPrograms/speakers/
Posted by Christopher M. Balz on September 30, 2004 at 11:16 AM PDT #

i wonder how much of the comment spam problem has to do with the ubiquity of movable type. i've only gotten a handful of comment spams. i've gotten more random comments on old entries that the less clueless stumble upon via searches.
Posted by Bontril on October 05, 2004 at 12:59 AM PDT #

I like comments... dont get enough ;) but I like them. I like interacting with the person, it used to be chat rooms, but blogs are starting to be a better forum (in my opinion) as a lot of local chats close and others go to pay only sites... it seems that blogging is a way forward for those of us who are constantly at the computer and thinking, also because it braodens our views - of the world, politics, church, theology.. you name it there is a blog on every topic. Anyhow, I like your blog here, its informative and has made me look around and read other blogs too :) Blessings.
Posted by Meridia on October 07, 2004 at 01:11 AM PDT #

I hope FireFox 1 will more proggressive. Sometimes I must use IE. Although my default is FireFox. How do you do..
Posted by ilalangliar on December 01, 2004 at 10:41 PM PST #

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Posted by SeoChat on December 19, 2004 at 06:07 AM PST #

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Posted by SeoChat on December 19, 2004 at 06:07 AM PST #

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Posted by SeoChat on December 19, 2004 at 06:08 AM PST #

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Posted by SeoChat on December 19, 2004 at 06:08 AM PST #

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Posted by SeoChat on December 19, 2004 at 06:08 AM PST #

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