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20041216 Thursday December 16, 2004

[ Philosophy ] More on "Truth"

Goeff Arnold has written a short essay on a discussion I seem to have started with my note on Popper, sharing some of his ideas.

I found myself writing a comment in response to his, and decided, because of its length, that it was more practical to just say it here.

In his comments, Geoff asks: When faced with a claim that "proposition X is true", I want to know in what sense the claim is made. Is X a statement in some formal closed system, so that truth is essentially analytical? Are you claiming correspondence truth to some real world? Etcetera.

These are deep questions, the answers to which will require a far longer dialog, and frankly I may not be able to produce any satisfactory answers at the end.

In mathematics, Alfred Tarski answers Geoff's first question. In formal terms, it's also given in Joseph Shoenfield's book on mathematical logic. However, science is a different matter. Although certain parts of mathematics are used in science (and other parts, perhaps, in art, religion or other activities), there's a distinction between science as an activity and mathematics (and logic) as a dicovery of abstract structures of formal languages and models.

Science builds, in a large part, on induction, ultimately based on experiments and conceptual frameworks. To elucidate that such conceptual frameworks are somewhat arbitrary, I recommended Plato's classic dialog Timaeus, in my comment to Geoff's note.

Science (and much of human reasoning for that matter) moves through associations, a la David Hume. The significance of this, of course, is only related to its logical structure. Hume wanted to say that there's no bottom or foundation for the certainty drawn from such associations and inductions. Just because Sun, the star, has risen every day, does not mean it will rise the next (my physicist friend from Sorbonne always hated this example), even if I've deployed Newtonian and other explanatory frameworks and tools to explain how it does rise. Ultimately, in science, all "what" questions end up getting a "how" explanation. That may satisfy some but doesn't satisfy every one of us. Such reasoning may provide assurances but it does not provide certainty either at the micro or macro level. (See my earlier note on Popper to see what I mean by micro and macro levels of uncertainty.)

Hume's discovery was simple enough but Popper can be read to be simply adding that to call a constellation of activities science, and to do so in some honest way, i.e. in a way that distinguishes it from other human activities such as art or religion, must include with it a commitment to accept that science is structurally and inherently refutable. This is not simply about micro-refutability, i.e. falsifiability along the lines of the first clause of the statement Geoff quotes from Bertrand Russell. (The remaining clauses of Russell's statement fit very well, not only with Russell's positivism but also with his utilitarian attitude towards reasoning and choice, but that's a different discussion.)

To repeat what I said in my earlier note, if science needs to remain refutable, it cannot address some important questions, such as: Why is there anything at all when there can be nothing? In fact, it cannot address any question regarding existence. Now, some may argue that such questions have no value (again a utilitarian argument) but the fact remains that for many human beings (not to mention many great philosophers), existential questions remain the most important questions of life.

2004-12-16 11:49:29.0 -- Comments [6] ; Permalink ; Trackback.

Comments:

OK, I'm confused. The original quotation was Truth has only to do with beliefs, and as such, science has nothing to do with truth. Are you saying that there are no truth-statements in science? In this latest posting, you say Such reasoning may provide assurances but it does not provide certainty either at the micro or macro level. But what does certainty have to do with truth? Statements about the sun rising (or not) may be expressed in accord with contingent or probabilistic scientific models; can we talk about their truth or not?

Whether or not existential questions remain the most important questions of life, they are not the only questions. And therefore truth is practically important.

Posted by Geoff Arnold on December 16, 2004 at 01:01 PM PST #

" In the human mind, truth has only to do with beliefs" Natural law is created in evolution. Pure science still is undefined; ie. we can not prove gravity waves. Yet I, think they exist. On the first commenters thought: :And therefore truth is practically important." The lingistic rules that guide our understanding and use of language: " Metaschemas" are difficult to detect directly. A linguist can index the rules of Life after much study, but a speaker of that languate is at a complete loss to explain how he puts words together in a sentence or comprehends what he hears. Linguistic metaschemas do it for him , irretrievably out of awareness. " only for the argument " not the outcome. rtg Respects to Geoff Arnold.

Posted by BOMBOVA on December 16, 2004 at 04:18 PM PST #

It is all in the dialog.

Posted by M. Mortazavi on December 16, 2004 at 04:22 PM PST #

" In the human mind, truth has only to do with beliefs" Natural law is created in evolution. Pure science still is undefined; ie. we can not prove gravity waves. Yet I, think they exist. On the first commenters thought: :And therefore truth is practically important." The lingistic rules that guide our understanding and use of language: " Metaschemas" are difficult to detect directly. A linguist can index the rules of Life after much study, but a speaker of that languate is at a complete loss to explain how he puts words together in a sentence or comprehends what he hears. Linguistic metaschemas do it for him , irretrievably out of awareness. " only for the argument " not the outcome. rtg Respects to Geoff Arnold.

Posted by BOMBOVA on December 16, 2004 at 04:25 PM PST #

Certainty has a lot to do with truth.

We cannot fix that by resort to probability.

For example, we can be either certain or uncertain about some probabilistic statement. How are we certain that we're not dreaming at this very moment and not living a real reality in our dreams? That's a question of certainty, not just probabilities.

If this was an imagined talk about mathematics, I would say we're not talking, merely, about mathematics. We're talking about meta-mathematics.

When one is doing this, one needs to take care not to mix the two levels of discussion but rather connect them.

We can be certain or uncertain about some probabilistic statement. I suppose Geoff may suggest we go ahead and also model that uncertainty according to some probabilistic model. But where does the chain of dependence end?

That sort of chain never ends. It has no bottom and cannot stand on its own. Thus, as a simple consequence, the question of existence is left out.

Posted by M. Mortazavi on December 16, 2004 at 05:23 PM PST #

Certainty has a lot to do with truth. We cannot fix that by resort to probability. Well, I guess that just about does it for a few thousand years of epistemology. When Plato asserted that knowledge is justified true belief, was he restricting this to beliefs that were true with certainty? Unless we limit ourselves to analytic propositions (requiring no justification), we are going to have to deal with synthetic propositions and that messy old real world. You correctly point out that one can always toss in a "but what if there's an X?" to upset any hypothetical applecart. This is the Quine-Duhem thesis, which is what led Popper to insist on testable predictions from any such hypothesis. And then it comes down to one's flavour of foundationalism. As an eliminative materialist (per Churchland/Churchland/Dennett et al), I have no problem grounding out those explanatory chains (in theory, anyway!). As for "Why is there anything rather than nothing?", I think that the positivists had this right: the question is incoherent.

Posted by Geoff Arnold on December 16, 2004 at 08:36 PM PST #

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