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20051009 Sunday October 09, 2005


Java Urban Performance Legends

There's a great thread on Slashdot titled Java Urban Performance Legends. It's mostly thrashing out urban performance legends in garbage collection, but you can find them all over the place. Modern Java VMs really are quite fast, often beating C and C++ in all sorts of benchmarks. Another common urban performance legend is that "Java must be slow because there's no way to turn off subscript checking": this one is completely false because all modern JVMs have optimizers that do a great job of eliminating subscript checking.

There was a funny incident at a recent developer event where some folks had a booth where they where demo-ing a high end industrial strength C compiler and had a benchmark that they had transliterated into Java. They were comparing their compiler to GCC and Java. GCC was running at about 2/3 the performance of this high end compiler; the Java version was running at about 2/3 the performance of the GCC version. Folks were gathered around the booth and someone noticed that the script they were using to run the Java version didn't have optimisation turned on. A few seconds with vi to add the "-server" switch and Java's performance jumped up to match the fancy C compiler. This got the pro-GCC crowd all excited, so a bunch of them started fiddling with its command line switches. They got a bit of improvement, but not much (the original selection had been pretty good).

The one place where Java does have a legitimate remaining performance issue is startup time. But these days it's down small enough to where anything that runs more than a few seconds has a hard time noticing it. Most startup time in modern Java apps goes to the app itself, not the VM.

(Sun Oct 09 14:02:59 PDT 2005)
Permalink Comments [185]

Trackback URL: http://blogs.sun.com/jag/entry/java_urban_performance_legends
Comments:

In 2001 when I was working at AltaVista I started a push to move us to using Java at the front end. At the time an executive had stated that Java was 40 times slower than C, and that it was easy to proove. So he sent me 4 programs he had written 4 years previously (when Java really was slow). I had a look at them, optimised the IO a little (there was no buffering) and the result was that the java programs were only at most 10% slower than the C program (one of them was actually faster) But of course the Java program did a lot more: for one it was completely unicode enabled, whereas the c program was not. And that was before NIO.

Soon after this AltaVista moved to rewriting all of its front end in java. I left to do other things, but was told that it was a great success. (Now if only they had listened to me 5 years previously when I told the CEO that they were not making the best of the resource hidden inside hyperlinks...)

Posted by Henry Story on October 09, 2005 at 04:55 PM PDT #

PS Your background image does a great job of making your text difficult to read!

Posted by Andy Roberts on October 10, 2005 at 07:36 AM PDT #

j,m,

Posted by 82.50.4.145 on October 10, 2005 at 09:23 AM PDT #

It's true that Java performance has been pretty impressive for a while now. I wonder what people's opinions are on the subject of applets (as opposed to applications)? Do you think the improvements to applets made in Java SE 5 mean they're ready for a comeback yet? See my blog for what *I* think.

Posted by Simon on October 10, 2005 at 12:05 PM PDT #

From what I've seen the difference in speed between Java and C/C++ is not much of an issue. In particular, the startup speed has improved significantly in jre 1.5x. Since many applications are run in a container (Web container, ejb container, etc) the startup time can be factored out. There is a bit of difference in memory usage. With C/C++ you can write a program with a much smaller footprint, but nowadays with cheap RAM, it's not a big deal. Given that the debuging is much easier with Java than C/C++, I don't see a big reason to use C over Java for most applications. There are some Java programs out there that run slow and hog memory, but well written programs can be very efficient.

Posted by Chris Gilliard on October 11, 2005 at 03:12 AM PDT #

It's funny to interview people with a problem that performs identically in C++ as it does in Java because the bottleneck is in the architecture and not in the code. At first the C++ people are convienced that C++ will run faster until the see and understand the problems that they are facing. Mean while people are missing out in the biggest win, time to market. In this area, Java is clearly ahead of C/C++. In yet another situation I was in, the company was prototyping in C++ because of concerns with performance. They were worried about performance in an application that was never going to see production and in the meantime spend a lot more time producing it. When questioned further one could find no basis for their concerns. They could not find one spot in the architecture where performance was so critical that it required the use of C++. Even in the face of this evidence and analysis the myth was so strong for them that they were unable to see the reality of the situation.

Posted by Kirk on October 11, 2005 at 03:00 PM PDT #

The last time I made a major attempt at using a Java app was when I ran JavaHMO, an add on application to lets my PC talk to my TiVO.

TiVo offers similar software, called TiVo Desktop, it consumed about 30Mb of RAM when maximized and less than 10Mb when minimized.

I installed JavaHMO, which admittedly had several features not found on the TiVo Desktop software, but even after disabling all the features not found on the TiVO Desktop JavaHMO consumed over 150Mb of RAM when running as a service. That's a larger footbrint than Windows itself. Or we could talk about the Java based remote

console application built into newer HP servers, a browser session with this running (using IE or Firefox) uses up almost 300Mb of RAM. Compare this with Win32 apps like VNC or Proxy that use well under 20Mb of RAM.

The problem with Java is that the Sun JVM (at least the Windows one) is a ridiculous resource hog and that almost all Java apps require specifically the Sun JVM (ruling out the use of a different JVM). What good is it to be "platform independent" if you are still dependent on a particular vendor's (poor performing) component?

Posted by Robert Aitchison on October 11, 2005 at 03:30 PM PDT #

I agree with Andy Roberts, your background does make it hard to read. Try reducing the contrast and slightly brightening it.

Posted by Jason Swartz on October 12, 2005 at 06:30 PM PDT #

I concur with Robert Aitchison (except parts of his last paragraph). Memory usage seems to be the last performance barrier to Java.

Posted by Chris Dailey on October 13, 2005 at 11:41 AM PDT #

Posted by 208.48.10.61 on October 13, 2005 at 12:14 PM PDT #

It seems to me, though I haven't spent too much time contemplating this, that much of the focus in the JVM has been put on metrics of cost per live object, and cost per allocated object. From all appearances, the resulting work has occured almost to the exclusion of concerns of heap space per object allocated. Perhaps the further speed improvements in Mustang should be tempered by a bit more aggressive use of the garbage collector to keep peak heap space down? Use some size-for-speed tradeoffs in the other direction.

Posted by Jason Marshall on October 13, 2005 at 01:14 PM PDT #

If you use adblock, it's fairly easy to remove the background. Makes the page readable, at least. :)

Posted by Jesse Sightler on October 17, 2005 at 01:54 PM PDT #

Java's simplicity made programming an available pass-time and profession for people with less of an aptitude for programming, than is demanded of C programmers. I would guess that a similar argument was held once upon a time when C was being chosen over Assembly.

Java's Virtual Machine abstracts the internals of the hardware and the operating system away from a requirement of knowledge (when programming languages like C) to an often fuzzy understanding.

Java has gotten some unwarranted bad press of it's performance because many programmers are failing to understand the nuances of performance.

If Java suffers in the performance stakes, then it is due to the addition of simplicity as a feature of the language. One cannot speak of one data set (performance metrics) without correlating associated measures.

Yes, Java is often slower, but time-to-market is as much a driver for the success of software as performance is. I believe that it takes shorter time to get a debuggged application into the market if written in Java than it would if written in C. Project Runtime is shorter, even if Application Runtime is longer.

Speedier application delivery saves money - maybe enough money for an extra couple of meg of RAM! - and keeps the wolf from the door.

Me, I'm surprised that java -server (from the originating piece) made such a difference! It must have been partially due to their test suite.

EB

Posted by Eanna Butler on October 18, 2005 at 05:17 AM PDT #

IMHO, the biggest Java advantage over C/C++ is reliability. I've been doing a lot of C/C++ on a project recently and the lack of garbage collection, array bounds checking, and a decent stack trace is a huge problem. We have a nagging bug now that shows up in production after hours of use. We have not been able to reproduce the bug on our test systems. It sounds like a memory issue, but without a stack trace it has been a real problem.

I wrote C/C++ code for years, I even liked it. Now I am of the opinion that it is very difficult to build reliable software of any reasonable size in C/C++. Sure, it can be done, but it takes a lot of discipline and attention to detail. What is the reward? A smaller footprint? I haven't seen small footprint software in years! Startup time? Firefox takes far too long to startup. I don't get...

If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears...

Posted by Madhu Siddalingaiah on October 18, 2005 at 05:36 PM PDT #

We've done quite a bit of work using Java for one of the most performance-sensitive apps there is -- a search engine. We've written a white paper on our experiences. The bottom line is that your algorithms matter a lot more than your choice of language.

Posted by Chris Cleveland on October 18, 2005 at 07:21 PM PDT #

I'lL SeCOnd ThE COMmeNT ThAT, thoUGH nICE lOOKIng, tHE BACKGrouND iS TOo INtrUSIvE aND MAKeS IT HArD TO REAd tHE PoST. Annoying, isn't it ?

Posted by Horrible background on October 19, 2005 at 12:14 PM PDT #

I too agree. It is too difficult to read with this background.

Posted by Binu on October 21, 2005 at 03:14 AM PDT #

Now the issue has changed. It is not speed anymore. It is the language and feature comparison that is making headlines. I have been using Java for about 8 years but recently got distracted by Groovy and C#. I am not using either but they are interesting. Don't mean to hijack this thread ;-)

Posted by Mohan Radhakrishnan on October 25, 2005 at 06:45 AM PDT #

Try to implement Knuth's algorithm finding Prime numbers both in C/C++, and in Java. I bet -server switch won't help then. Java delivers fast, not runs fast.

Posted by Shufu on November 30, 2005 at 09:11 AM PST #

Garbage collection just doesn't work well with virtual memory. At least not with "transparent" VMMs. I've experienced GC pauses that have been over one hour long! (If you were "in the zone", programming, then you certainly won't be after watching your IDE GCing for an hour.)

Posted by Marcus Sundman on December 06, 2005 at 07:57 AM PST #

I've often heard that Java is as fast as C++, usually with explanations of theoritical optimaztion opportunities, but actual data is hard to come by. I've done a few benchmarks myself with mixed results.

I've published my prime finding benchmarks that show Java, C#, and C++ running at roughly the same speed on Mac and Windows.

I also ported GNU Chess from C to Java, and the Java code seems to be about 60% as fast as the C code. The Java code is still C-style with few objects and lots of static methods.

Finally, I've tried numerical operations like large matrix multiplications (nothing published), and Java was about 10 times slower than C. Apparently, the nested loops were beyond the ability of the ranged subscript optimizations mentioned in the original posting. (This was using Java 1.4.2 about 2 years ago in case there have been significant improvements since then.)

Posted by Xan Gregg on December 07, 2005 at 03:55 PM PST #

Yeah, that old urban legend about Java slowness is still around. Never mind, Java is able to run soft real time telemetry for Formula One racing cars... ;-) http://wiki.javapolis.com/confluence/display/JP05/Formula+One+Telemetry+with+Java

Posted by Fabrizio Giudici on December 30, 2005 at 05:44 PM PST #

this is so typical for the java marketing hype: java runs "real time telemetry for F1 racing cars"... wow, so it must be so damn fast... why? because F1 cars are so fast... and drivers are so cool... why not tell something about the application instead? what does it do in fact? just send and receive a bunch of messages time to time? i tried to read the article, but when i run into lines like the following, i give up: "This does not occur in the stable, quiet, controlled-atmosphere room in the computing center of a bank, but in a narrow, noisy, hot garage, with extremely busy people moving among flying network and power cables." great guys, keep up the good work.

Posted by Steve Balogh on February 06, 2006 at 01:51 AM PST #

Let me articulate a bit: so what does this killer-app do in fact? Send and receive periodical messages between the messy garage and two cars? WOW!!! At least you explain why it has to be portable: "the whole garage is unpacked and set up every week in a different location of the world". The need for scalability is obvious: in the future the application must be ready to deserve 3 cars too, should F1 rules change suddenly. I bet this is way more complex than a perl-based portal deserving 1000 requests a minute.

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