Just a tiny correction, the scenegraph (and css support) is not really out in the open, the old 0.6 version is, that's true; the v1.0 (with bug fixes and new features) on the other hand isn't yet, nor are the improvements and fixes that are being done or will be added in the future either, obviously.

So we don't really know if they are to be considered 2 different entities, or only one being dual licensed: gpl (in that case, where is the source ?) and fx license (which prohibits distribution of the runtime other than with jnlp extensions - so hosting the jars is a no-no guys) which seems a conflict of interest since open source licensing is all about restrictions and rights for the people you distribute software to.

Even then, the chosen license might also be too restrictive (especially within the open source community, which seems counterproductive).

It's more restrictive than OpenJDK's license itself which is way more strategic than the scenegraph. That's a little puzzling.

This is a question we've been asking for quite some time now, and we'd really like an answer.

But I'm also interested in this: why the change of heart ? It all started in the open, under openjfx branding. I'm sure renaming it to closedjfx would be bad for its image so the openjfx site is left gathering dust in a corner, even though it was for quite some time the only source of information on javafx (and that was not a whole lot btw, and the important strategic value of it certainly not up to the scope of what you're trying to accomplish with the technology).

The story is all in the older revs of the compiler runtime (with some funny things license wise, different licenses on different revs of the same file, a component which seems taken from the internet being, presumably incorrectly, dual licensed under incompatible licenses)

What's good for such strategic products such as java and openjdk must be good for smaller but still strategic ones, why the change of heart ?

Could we know the roadmap about splitting the runtime into an opensource + binary 3rd party, or an approximate ETA ? JavaFX has been a long time coming and very little communication has been effectively done since the early beginnings. We have quotes of Nandini Ramani dating back May 2007 stating the runtime will be open sourced, so this is certainly not a new topic for you guys internally or for us asking questions about it. A roadmap on that topic would certainly be of great interest to all of us.

Thanks Jeet
Remy

PS: the answer to point 7 is pure marketing spin :) Tried and tested (and even open standards) formats do the exact things you mention, and then *way* more. The tool that was written to export to fxd could have exported to any of those formats. It would have been more complicated to do so, and a constant source of bugs, maintenance and support issues, user dissatisfaction, for something that in effect you provide for free, i understand that completely. Knowing fxz/fxd i can tell you the answer has nothing to do with the question. Come on, that's not very nice.

Posted by lqd on December 17, 2008 at 01:17 AM PST #

That's a useful concise FAQ.

By the way, for those who are confused by different JavaFX file formats (FXD, FXZ, FXM), so here is the explanation.

(or whatever those terms are officially called. The following terms is just my best guess from the abbreviation)
FXD: JavaFX Description File
FXZ: JavaFX Zipped Asset File (FXD + Resource files)
FXM: JavaFX MultiMedia File (On2's Video + MP3 Audio)

From URL: http://support.on2.com/javafx/
"JavaFX's native video file format, FXM, is composed of On2 VP6 video and MP3 audio."

From URL: http://javafx.com/docs/gettingstarted/production_suite/
"When you export a graphic from Adobe Illustrator or Adobe Photoshop to JavaFX, a file with an FXZ extension is created. FXZ is a compressed file using zip compression and file format. It always contains an FXD file, which is a text description of the graphic. In addition, it might contain embedded assets, such as image files or TrueType fonts. The FXZ file is used as a source file by JavaFX developers. The NetBeans IDE 6.5 for JavaFX 1.0 will display the contents of the file and also allow developers to view the graphic, the source description, and archive information."

Posted by GeekyCoder on December 17, 2008 at 07:14 AM PST #

@lqd

I don't understand Jeet's answer to 7; and I'm not sure of the reasons for Sun's decision to create a new file format. What I will say is - there are a number of scenarios where it *could* make perfectly good sense. For example, if you are developing a new platform for doing fancy things with graphics (e.g. like JavaFX); you can't predict what features you will want to implement in the future. Whereas, if you own the file format, you have the control you need to ensure that whatever you do in future, your file format can support it (lots of potential for future innovations in areas such as compression and delivery of content over a network etc, as well as graphical effects themselves). Or, it might be the case that existing "standards" in the area are too flaky and/or variable to be reliably supportable. Whereas, with your own format, you have the chance to ensure that your software supports your file format correctly.

Bottom line is: if you intend to innovate in your problem domain; and you have the ambition to build super-reliable software... then, I think there are good reasons to consider creating your own file format(s).

Posted by Simon Brocklehurst on December 17, 2008 at 08:46 AM PST #

The release-then-think-about-foss-licensing approach seems very backward to me and a lost opportunity. If JavaFX has been developed as a FOSS project with a community, as the original OpenJFX site seemed to suggest, then you would be less wanting for JavaFX developers now and it would be being packaged in GNU/Linux distributions as we speak...

If the media stuff is a problem, why not just use an existing FOSS licensed layer like Ogg Theora? I'd guess most content developers wouldn't care too much as long as there is a nice shiny button that says Encode and the result looks okay.

Posted by Andrew John Hughes on December 17, 2008 at 11:05 AM PST #

lqd, Simon, Martin: thanks for the extra clarifications. It seems that graphics file formats are a topic of strong opinions, I found other blogs/forums with people arguing over FXD :) And yes, blame on me for not checking if the SVG->FXD conversion was complete. Anyway, the other advantages of FXD certainly hold, and Martin's details on that are just what I would expect. Happy to know the FX team is considering a good binary format (die ASCII, die!! he he)

Posted by Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein on December 17, 2008 at 05:09 PM PST #

@Kees
Not at this moment, but this is certainly a good idea and it shouldn't be very difficult to create a writer which would output a structure for given scene graph tree. Please file an RFE to our bugtracking system: http://javafx-jira.kenai.com

@Osvaldo
You are very welcome. BTW I still see a value in an ascii based format for the design/build time. For the runtime though, this is a different story. This is especially important when you load really complex graphics we can easily output from AI these days - in this case an optimized binary format can make really a difference.

Posted by Martin Brehovsky on December 18, 2008 at 07:22 PM PST #

I'll try to bring another point of view to this talk, the content creator/provider one.

Considering audio and video support in JavaFX, On2 VP6 + MP3 is a show stopper. VP6 is ok, but MP3 is not.

For example, to get a good audio quality in MP3 a 128kbps bit rate is needed, while in AAC LC the same quality could be achieved in 64kbps and in HE-AACv2 48kbps would do.This bits wasted on audio could be used to improve video quality.

Considering de video side of the problem, H.264 is the way to go. It's a standard compression technology , widely adopted by the industry and is the way all the content industry and delivery platforms (Flash and Silverlight) are heading to.

We content creator/providers have got so much invested in H.264 + AAC, that I urge Sun, if you want JavaFX to succed as a media delivery platform then embed cross platform support for H.264 + HE-AACv2 is the only way to go.

Posted by Gabriel Lamounier on December 19, 2008 at 06:02 AM PST #

This is a cross-post of mine from Kirill's blog:

h264 is a patented codec and distributing h264 content(not even codecs, just content) within your software is subject to royalties unless you're not making any money by providing it, not even indirectly via advertising.

Hence, h264 is an awful codec for "developers". On2's codecs specifically circumvent this by allowing 3rd parties to distribute VP6 encoded content royalty free. This is a gift from Sun wrapped up with a bow tie on it and I'm struggling to understand the resistance.

The crying over audio quality loss of mp3 vs AAC is also a perfect waste of time as most of users are listening to audio on either $5 headphones, built in speakers, or low quality desktop ones.

If audio is really paramount, one can:
a) bump up the mp3 quality to 256kps
or
b) distribute different content for different OS's since Windows will support WMV/WMA and OSX will support h264/AAC.
Any decent NLE will let you export the timeline differently this way.

For 5 min of 44.1 kHz stereo audio, there is a 3 mb difference in file size between 48kbps and 128kbps. This will buy you very little in terms of video quality and, in general, is somewhat irrelevant given the massive pipes and file sizes everyone's become accustomed to. Non-issue.

I'm realy not seeing any real drawbacks so far, and some huge advantages for us Java multimedia developers.

Posted by Alex on January 02, 2009 at 08:23 AM PST #

Is Sun thinking of deprecating J2ME in favour of JavaFX or are both roles of both technologies complementary in long run(and just not in immediate short run).

Posted by Saurabh on January 06, 2009 at 02:49 AM PST #

I am very excited about JavaFX, it's possibilities and architecture, but the path that was chosen for cross-platform media support makes me worried for if it will succeed on that terrain.
I'm sure the deal with On2 was a good one from a commercial point of view, but I'm not sure if you can get revenue from a technology that technically was a dead-end road already for Flash.

@Alex
The On2 codec way will quality-wise be rather fine when looking at Video-on-demand only. Especially as supposedly JavaFX would support On2 VP6's successor VP8 at some point this year(?).
But the story is a different one when it comes to live streaming. I know this chapter hasn't been written yet in JavaFX, but it starts under very unfortunate preconditions with the On2 technology. Even if JavaFX would support RTMP as streaming protocol, and thus you could use the few (2) livestream-encoder available in the Flash ecosystem, you gonna have big problems finding the right solution for many needs. Not even speaking of lacking support by widely used FLOSS standard tools like ffmpeg and vlc. If this threat of low accessibility of live-streaming to JavaFX is not adressed, JavaFX will not be able to challenge Flash as the top dog of live stream receiving. And we aren't even speaking about live encoding support...
I know you can't have everything that is in Flash right now, but the general direction taken by now really worries me.

Regards, Alex

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Furthermore we are planning to enhance the format over the time as the FX platform evolves - new scene graph elements are coming, high level components (UI controls) are coming, maybe 3D scene graph at some point, etc .... In the case we would be using SVG, we have to follow the standard and all advanced features coming from FX would have to exist in a different namespace and all tools working directly with SVG would obviously ignore them. Not exactly the best solution and definitely not scalable.

Also FXD has been designed to always map 1:1 to the FX classes. With SVG or other formats it would be nearly impossible to achieve the same (e.g. group is 'g' in SVG would you like to use class 'g' in FX - I'm not sure about that.).

And finally - FXD/FXZ has been designed as a design-time format. For the time being it is being used as the runtime format as well, but in the future we might introduce a binary runtime format, which would be a way more efficient than the design time. For you developers nothing will be changed, as you will always work with FXD/FXZ and the SDK/tools will be responsible for translating it into a binary form, so the the runtime will be able to read the optimized binary form and the runtime should be able to read that in a way more efficient way (this is important especially for smaller devices such as mobile phones or other embedded devices).

Let me know if this explained the reasons why FXD and not SVG or any other existing file format. I'll try to post this also to the official javafx blog.

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