Monday March 03, 2008 
Monday March 03, 2008 Rejected! Great Places to Work
OK, I'm going to say what is obvious to anyone who picked up the February 4 Fortune magazine - Sun did not make it on the U.S. 100 Best Places to Work list. And I was soooo disappointed.
Because I think Sun is a great place to work. Unfortunately, some of our randomly selected survey takers didn't agree with me.
For those of you who are not familiar with the coveted Great Places to Work (GPTW because I'm getting tired of typing) list, let me quickly fill you in. You get your face on Fortune Magazine's cover and fabulous publicity if you're chosen as the number one place to work in the United States. That honor has gone to Google for the past two years, curse them. Not that I'm jealous. Anyway, you get on the list -which is incredibly prestigious even if you're number 100 (Joke: What do you call the person who graduates first in class from medical school? Answer: Valedictorian. What do you call the person who graduates last? Answer: Doctor) by going through a grueling application process. Two-thirds of your score is based on a survey that goes to a very small subset of your employee base - something like 400 people this past year. No, we don't get to choose who gets it. No, it's not statistically significant. Yes, those are the rules you must play by for the playing field to be even.
I'm now going to reveal a big corporate secret. Reporters, take note! Are you ready? While our application was fabulous, we were done in by some pretty poor survey results. It seems that doing a series of reductions in force over the past five years has not contributed to warm, cozy feelings on the part of our survey takers. Nor have other cutbacks we've been forced to make to stay in business made our participants feel particularly good. And let's face it. Reductions cause not only insecurity for employees but very valid concerns about career opportunities. So I'm not kidding myself about their impact on employee morale.
As Bob Dylan said, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."
Our wind is apparently darn cold and from the north, based on that survey. (In fairness, I have to tell you that our broad semi-annual employee attitude survey - while pointing out some distinct areas for improvement - was far more positive than the GPTW survey. I don't know if that means that employees are drinking happy juice when completing our corporate survey...)
Here's what's ironic to me - of all the companies that I know of who have gone through extremely hard times, companies who have had to fight for their lives, Sun shines brightly in our determination to be as kind to employees going out as employees coming in. We are, IMHO, a darn nice place to work. And beyond that, we're a place filled with interesting work and smart people.
Our turnaround - fought for by every single employee in this company - is showing results. Analysts have good things to say about us. Customers have good things to say about us. Developers have good things to say about us. Our press coverage has dramatically improved. We've been public about what we're going to accomplish and we've met those commitments. We've stopped changing our strategy and focus on a too-frequent basis and are demonstrating "stick-to-itness."
I'm proud of this company and of our leadership, but mostly I'm proud of our 33,000 employees who have done so much to keep us going.
Building on the momentum of success is easy. Rebounding after six bad years is extremely difficult. I think maybe it's time for a new award. The "Tough as Nails Proud to be Relevant" award (TNPR). Or the "Better than Ever Despite Hard Times" award (BEDHT). Or the "Got Guts, Got Heart" award (GGGH). Somewhere there needs to be recognition for those of us who have marched on a tough trail, teetered near disaster and recovered strongly albeit battle-scarred.
I miss so many great people who used to be a part of us. Who through no fault of their own are no longer here. So this award is for you, too.
Oh, and one last thought. How many companies would let you - never mind encourage you - to say what's on your mind about sensitive subjects like getting dinged by your employees? As my friend and colleague Betty Verstegen said, "You don't have to get on a list to be a great place to work."
Posted by terrymckenzie ( Mar 03 2008, 08:00:00 AM PST ) Permalink Comments [52]
Trackback URL: http://blogs.sun.com/tmac/entry/great_places_to_work
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Terry, I think you are spot on about our company. I am very happy to work for Sun. Yes things are not perfect everyday but no company ever is. Do I like all the changes we have been through - well no not all of them, but I do believe Sun has made every effort to make these changes as painless and efficient as possible. Remember "best" is a relevant term and compared to other places I have worked Sun is the Best. Enjoy what you do and do what you enjoy.
Posted by Tim Penick on March 04, 2008 at 01:49 PM PST #
Hi Terry,
I have worked here at sun 12 months now. In my 30 years experience working in Silly Vally this is definitely the best place to work. I think most people here are too focused to do the survey. A friend works at a company that always makes the list tell me that it is not a great place to work.
A more important fact is that most of the people I have worked with here have been with Sun for over 10 years. The standard in the valley is four years.
Posted by Tim Crawford on March 04, 2008 at 03:46 PM PST #
I don't think such list can reflect the fact, at least in china, the sun is a great working place which most of students hunger for.
Posted by Shawn Wang on March 04, 2008 at 07:26 PM PST #
Hi Terry,
I have been working with Sun Microsystems, India Engineering Center for last 7 and half years. It is indeed a great place to work. I always say to my colleagues "Sun is the coolest place to work in Earth"
Posted by Madhu K R on March 04, 2008 at 07:50 PM PST #
The things that make Sun great are a
corporate culture of respect for the individual,
appreciation of technical merit, and creating
an environment that fosters innovation.
I know many. many people, colleagues who are in the
10+ year club at Sun, some in the 20 year club.
Show me one company, other than perhaps Intel,
where employees remain with a single company
for so long and I'll show you a place that's
better than Sun to work for.
Posted by 10+ year Sun employee on March 05, 2008 at 12:15 AM PST #
Hi Terry,
Sun is an outstanding place to work. Hands down one of the best in the IT industry. Our company (and the whole industry) have gone through some tough times and had to make some hard choices as you've pointed out. I was with Sun for over 5 years as an employee (back now as a contractor) and saw tough choices being made and the whole company pulling together. (remember when Scott called for employee suggestions and we saved $40 million in a quarter by cutting things like plasticware in the break areas and doughnut on Weds?)
I've always been happy to work at Sun and the company has always worked hard to meet it's values in how it treats it's employees.
So work on the survey areas that indicate where we can improve but take heart in that the vast majority of the folks here are happy to be here and proud of their company and the folks they work with.
Don
Posted by Don Bessee on March 05, 2008 at 08:30 AM PST #
I used to think it was a great place to work. I now think it is a comfortable place to work. When I joined almost 10 years ago, within 3 months I received a sizable raise and two good bonuses. Clothing was being passed out weekly, donuts on Wednesday, & sodas were free. That's all gone. I enjoy working here & I like the people. I am comfortable.
Posted by An almost 10 year employee on March 05, 2008 at 12:47 PM PST #
I can understand your disappointment, but I feel that these things are just popularity contests. Sort of like King and Queen of the prom or "most likely to succeed". You can be "#1" today and Enron tomorrow.
If you know you are great or "the best", you don't need to thump your chest. Your friend Betty is very wise.
Posted by a real 10 year employee on March 05, 2008 at 02:01 PM PST #
Hi Terry,
I have been with Sun for almost a year now as my first "real job" and agree that this is a great place to work. That said, what do you think the company needs to do to make the top 100 besides revenue growth?
Posted by Mike Coe on March 05, 2008 at 02:10 PM PST #
Growth is sure key - it opens opportunities all over the place. In addition? Well, I'm more interested in hearing from others but never shy about expressing my opinion....we need to think about camaraderie. Open work is a double-edged sword, right? Great to be able to work from anywhere, but how do you create excitement and friendships on campus locations? And for people who work at home... That would be high on my list. Other thoughts, anyone?
Posted by Terry McKenzie on March 05, 2008 at 02:22 PM PST #
Some of 100 great companies to work for offer free healthcare for employees and families while Sun is cutting medical benefits such as co-insurance 10%, higher paycheck deduction, reducing dental from $2000 to $1500. That are some of reason why Sun is not among that 100 great companies to work for.
Posted by John Smith on March 05, 2008 at 02:33 PM PST #
John Smith mentions one of the dissatisfiers of working at Sun (reduced benefits) and "An almost 10 year ..." mentions some of the others. The fact is, many of us who were left-behind in the layoffs found our workloads increased and our salaries stagnating.
Is a 400-person sample "not significant"? It was significant enough when we WERE on the list. Now it gets discounted?
Posted by An 11 year employee on March 05, 2008 at 05:13 PM PST #
Interestingly, none of the big CompTech companies are on the list...no IBM, no HP, no Dell, no Oracle. So this may provide some consolation; could be an industry thing.
However, as a 10+ yr employee, I have noticed a definitive shift to a management style of "this is your assignment and/or goal, like or not." On top of this, the workload has increased tremendously. Not a good equation for a positive survey.
Funny...I would provide more feedback, but I would not want to set myself up for a RIF notice!
Posted by bruised and battered sales person on March 05, 2008 at 05:34 PM PST #
Here's a recent quote from a coworker who left Sun for Google:
'I like it here. It's even better than the way Sun used to be.'
BTW, I noticed that Cisco and Network Appliance made the top twenty. I've got friends at Cisco (some of whom are ex-Sun). They've seen cutbacks too and they say the management style is notably more unstructured than at Sun. But they also say they get paid enough to put up with all of that.
Posted by Preparing my exit strategy on March 05, 2008 at 06:38 PM PST #
I like this topic and those discussions. It's better than Power of Sun Survey. ;-)
Posted by Arthur on March 05, 2008 at 07:27 PM PST #
"Preparing my exit strategy" has it right.
I bet that "Best Places to Work" ranking correlates
well with financial remuneration. That said remember
that much of the perceived advantage of places like
Google in this regard is not the salary, but with
the performance of their stock. I bet that the
standing of many companies in the list correlates
highly with the performance of their stock.
Corollary:
Sun will be back high on the list as soon as its
stock starts doing well! (There's of course a little
bit of circular logic here, but I am sure you'll
cut me some slack in a blog comment!)
Posted by 10+ year employee on March 05, 2008 at 10:17 PM PST #
In my experience, Sun is a great place to work and I like its work culture. Sun is growing with very good leadership and vision.
Posted by 192.18.192.21 on March 06, 2008 at 04:20 AM PST #
i have worked at sun about a year and a half. i actually filled out the gptw survey. i did not give sun great marks. the reasons include:
politics - sun is a highly political environment where reward and recognition seem largely based on who you know and managing up, not on actually producing good work. i believe much of this stems from the fact that so many people at sun are long-timers. we don't hire new blood often - mostly we have boomerangs. so what we are left with are a bunch of people who have been here a long time and are well-connected and work the system.
open work - open work is a great idea. but there is a downside to it - namely lack of corporate culture and cameraderie. as i mentioned, most people have been here a long time. they have their networks and so now working from home a few days a week is no big deal. but if you are just getting here and trying to build your network and figure out who's who (which you need to do because politics are so crucial), it's an uphill battle since you can't ever meet people face to face.
upward mobility - no such thing here. in my 18 months at sun i have yet to see someone deserving actually get promoted. as for how i might move forward in my career at sun, i've asked several times. nobody seems to know. all they know is that it involves making VPs and directors like you. i actually had a friend interview for a job at sun. when she asked about career path the hiring manager said, and i quote, "if you are looking for a company that helps you map out a clear career path, sun is not the place for you. you have to get here, get the lay of the land and start meeting people to get ahead." this gets back to my first point.
i wasn't here for the heady dotcom days so i don't care about donuts and tshirts. i want to be respected and feel valued. this company gets a lot out of me and doesn't give too much back in return. of course it's not all bad. but "great" it isn't. not for new employees anyway.
Posted by not sure how long i'll last on March 06, 2008 at 11:05 AM PST #
To Note sure how long i'll last:
My first reaction when I read your comment was, Ouch. OK, my second reaction, too. But I thank you for your powerful thoughts - it's feedback that we absolutely need to address. As I commented earlier, camaraderie is an issue when you have so many folks working at home (BTW, it's one of the reasons we're working really intensely on building e-communities - stay tuned for more on that down the road).
I do think that job opportunities are harder when you're struggling, and that as we have moved back to growth, we'll see things open up. And we are a relationship company - I can see how that would translate to politics, although it's not how I personally view it (maybe because I have relationships?? ;-) )
Anyway, you don't solve problems by sticking your head in the sand and ignoring them or being Pollyanna. So thank you again. And I personally hope you last a long time.
Terry
Posted by Terry McKenzie on March 06, 2008 at 11:18 AM PST #
I've worked for sun for about a year and was going to post a comment but "not sure how long I'll last" voiced my thoughts better than i would have.
A few things I probably shouldn't write:
That survey was specific to the US. Are there similar surveys -based on an independent audit of employee opinions- for other geographies? And if so, what do they show?
In my limited experience, I've seen that for all the PR that streams out of the States about a successful turnaround and newfound strengths within Sun, the general mood in Europe is rather gloomy. And until tangible reasons to believe the hype reach these shores, I don't see why folks in all the small, remote and comparatively expensive European sites should stop worrying. How that would translate on a 'great places to work' survey is fairly obvious, I think.
With that said, I actually rather like working hard for Sun but that's really down to the individuals I interact with every day in the (physical) office. They get my 'Great Folks to Work With' award.
Posted by courage is a value, right? on March 06, 2008 at 02:02 PM PST #
I have agree with Not Sure about the career path. In my experience, you work your tail off to get ahead, and then there's a reorg every six months and the new managers don't know you from Adam.
WRT GPTW:Sun is such a diverse company, I'm not sure how a small sampling can accurately give an overall picture. We have people working all over the world. Maybe the relative working conditions in Beijing are very different from those in Menlo Park. Hardware Engineers may have a different experience than Software Engineers- especially WRT Open Work. Sales may love the ability to sell all of these great (and they are great) new products, but Engineering is getting burned out with the workload. This is a weakness in the Power of Sun Survey as well, i.e. there should be a grouping and breakdown by job type and geo.
I've been at Sun for 7 years now, so these are the "good times" WRT revenue (and bonuses). Even so, the "fun" factor has been gone a long time. Terry has talked about many of the root causes. I'm not sure what can be done though. Increase pay would help morale in the short term, but that hurts the bottom line and bonuses. Returning to a traditional workforce model might build some of the lost camaraderie, but would alienate those who have built there lives around Open Work. Increased share price would boost the Street's opinion, but few Stock Options have been handed out to the bottom of the org chart as of late (important point for the "newcomers").
I think Sun's Executive Management really cares. I'm just not sure there are many variables available to them without hurting another area of the company.
Personally I'm hoping rising revenues "raises all boats".
Posted by JP on March 06, 2008 at 02:05 PM PST #
Good but not great, anymore. Perhaps we could cut deep enough once and get on with it. As a stock holder, I would feel better on either side of that fence. Not to mention feel secure enough to buy something more expensive than lunch. Let's wrap this phase up and bring back Steve Jobs. We miss him.
As for PoS, isn't that tied to our bonuses? Good strategy for positive feedback, but honesty?!
Posted by 10+ on March 06, 2008 at 02:42 PM PST #
To: Courage is a value, right? and to JP
Thank you for some thoughtful responses. In response to your question about this being a US award,you're correct. Interesting that we've done pretty well in other countries getting on the list - I don't have all the awards we've won at my fingertips but I'll find that and post it.
And JP is right about difficult trade-offs. There are many of them.
But perhaps Courage captured it well when he/she said, "With that said, I actually rather like working hard for Sun but that's really down to the individuals I interact with every day in the (physical) office. They get my 'Great Folks to Work With' award."
I think that's true for lots of us....
Terry
Posted by Terry McKenzie on March 06, 2008 at 06:50 PM PST #
If GPTW is really just a popularity contest and its results are not a true reflection of what life is like at Sun, then perhaps we should not apply at all.
I didn't bother with "The Power of Sun" survey. My reason? Apathy. After 8+ years, I'm not convinced that it makes a difference.
Posted by 8+ on March 06, 2008 at 11:29 PM PST #
I have good news for all of you. I just talked to my colleagues and they told me, that Sun was No. 2 in the Czech Republic last year. So, if you do not mind moving to Prague... :-)
I started to work at Sun half a year ago and must say, that it is the best place I have worked at so far.
You are missing donuts on Wednesdays? Pfff, I think you are spoiled. ;-)
There is too much politics at Sun? I am afraid it is always like that, everywhere. Also there are always networks, which exist for years. This should not discourage you. There are lots of other new employees, who struggle with the same problem and with whom you can start creating your network pretty easily. And from my experience (not only at Sun) there are always older colleagues who are happy to mentor you and use their network to help you, once they are convinced by your potential.
If you are satisfied with your employer probably depends a lot on what you expect and what is important to you. I like Sun because of their high values and ethics. From the outside, Sun is always considered to be the good guys. Other companys like Google try hard, but their clean slate is already showing dark stains.
I am happy to work for Sun, because I am proud to be part of a team who wants to change things to the better. (Yeah, I am an idealistic dreamer sometimes.) :-)
Posted by Mike on March 07, 2008 at 06:52 AM PST #
AS PROMISED: GPTW outside the US
We've been recognized recently in:
* Brazil
* India
* Czech Republic
* Mexico
* Argentina
* Chile
Hope I didn't miss anyone!
Terry
Posted by Terry McKenzie on March 07, 2008 at 11:16 AM PST #
So, just out of curiosity, how random was the sampling for this employee survey? In other words, were specific steps taken to that prevent the survey from just picking up the two extremes of the bell-curve -- either those ecstatic with the company or those disgusted with it -- and thus missing, like many electoral systems -- or the ubiquitous popularity contests on the web --, the large mass of employees who are happy (or not, depending on which tail the reader of this comment may belong to!) but just didn't think this was worth jumping through the hoops to respond to the survey.
While some of these non-random survey techniques are useful for recognizing the populations at the extremes (tails) of a distribution, they may not be an accurate reflection, like the comments in this blog, of what the overall shape of a population looks like.
So, Terry, can you tell us anything about the sampling technique used here?
Posted by 10+ year employee on March 07, 2008 at 02:11 PM PST #
Sooo disappointed?
Terry, I expect that answer only from someone in Sun HR. The list itself has no integrity but I will humor you and tell you why we don't make the list. Let's start with something that affects everybody at Sun. First, Sun's recent profitability = stolen back wages. Yes, if you don't give raises, stock awards, overtime, promotions or at best cost of living adjustments, you had better be making a profit. Budget shortfalls are have been the rule at Sun for a half decade especially in Services.
But on to other reasons. How about this one, you say you value innovation but reward only lock step conformity!? Innovation is valued if you are in R&D or Software. Everywhere else in Sun is goal driven and your only reason in life is to achieve those goals, there is no tolerance for any innovation in reaching those goals.
Here's a good one, Why do we say we value diversity, when there is not a single woman or minority reporting to Jonathan Schwartz or Greg Papadopoulos. O I forgot if you count their admin assistants. My bad. Sounds like Sun is desperately trying to make these lists because they can get around having to invest in their people. I suppose you could argue that Sun offshores diversity. Which I don't have a problem with since global inclusion by definition is the best kind of inclusion. But only if the offshore employees are diverse within their microcosm as feasible or what's the point. But if offshoring diversity is our strategy we sure go to great lengths to keep it a secret.
The final point is that a list with no integrity should hardly be a goal of Sun. And if the list does indeed have integrity. A true company of integrity that makes the list would not need to worry about making it either way.
Posted by Anonymous on March 07, 2008 at 02:19 PM PST #
To: 10+ employee
I believe it's random random. Like computer-spit out random. If that's not the case, I'll post a correction later on...not my expertise!
Terry
Posted by Terry McKenzie on March 07, 2008 at 03:29 PM PST #
Is it just me or does anyone else get the impression that Terry is ignoring the posts that are most critical of Sun?
Posted by Below Decks and Working Late on March 08, 2008 at 12:19 AM PST #
To: Below Docks
Well, I don't think I'm guilty - I did respond to "Not sure how long I'll last" after all. And yes, I did respond to a more positive post from "Courage and JP"...and since we're counting, I did provide the names of the countries we've won the award in, and I did answer the question about how surveys are generated.
I've started some other responses but end up sounding defensive. Like now! I was pretty blunt about our shortcomings in my blog. And there are certainly points here I agree with - as a female working for Sun, do you think I'm happy that there are no women reporting to Jonathan or Greg P? And no, I don't care about donut day and most t-shirts are ugly anyway and only come in XXLLL so I don't really care about them. And I do believe the quality of your work experience is largely related to your manager. Work for a terrific one? You're going to love your job. Work for a terrible one? You're not going to be as happy. That's why I really liked the comment about "Great Folks to Work for."
Anyway, you and anyone else can always email me at terry.mckenzie@sun.com if you prefer to continue 1:1....Or just post comments and if I have something not trite to say, I'll try to respond. Fair?
Terry
Posted by Terry McKenzie on March 08, 2008 at 03:52 PM PST #
Terry please continue to lead but don't make the same mistakes that Sun keeps making. You don't have to respond to every critical point, and that is perfectly fine. By simply having a blog and talking about issues, is a great step in leadership but as you say "sounding defensive" is an old Sun mistake. You don't have to be defensive at all. An old, Sun mistake is to circle the wagons every time the unpopular truth is in front of them. What I said, earlier in the Sooo disappointed post is not an attack, so you don't have to defend. Again, you could say nothing which is perfectly fine. But think about it, you have a post going to you from a completely different part of the company. That is not all the common at Sun at least from my perspective. It's a great bridge to allow us to talk, even if I am anonymous and fear retribution. You have my attention for now because you were brave enough to lead with a blog and you obviously have someone else's attention if your blog made the SunWeb. I know circling the wagons is a primal response but resist that urge and lead toward empowerment and healing. Spend time with minorities at Sun, find out why management by objective is a zero sum game, why is it that I cannot even name the highest ranking woman at Sun. Then talk about it in your blog, it really does not take that much time and you could inspire others to action, you inspired me to talk about it right?. Create a virtuous cycle with this blog and always remember that critical points are not personal, and they are a good sign that someone is listening. Good luck
Posted by Anonymous on March 09, 2008 at 07:06 PM PDT #
Wednesday March 05, 2008
Sun Named to Fortune Magazine's America's Most Admired Companies List
Today Fortune Magazine published its "America's Most Admired Companies" list online. Sun’s ranking within the computers industry jumped to #5 on the admired list and our scores improved by nearly every measure. Among the most dramatic improvements included a jump of three places in the quality of management and use of corporate assets categories as well as a two position increase people management. We scored #2 in innovation, a great nod to our focus on innovation across our products and operations.
Way to go, Sun!
Who needs the GPTW survey!
Posted by Point-Counter-Point on March 10, 2008 at 05:05 PM PDT #
Re high ranking women at Sun. There was a time in the not-too-distant past that we had a lot more high ranking women in our executuve ranks than most companies in Si-Valley (which is not great; but remember that the ratio of women to men in most engineering schools in the US is pretty low as well; hopefully that is slowly changing as long-held social stereotypes are discarded, e.g. about women being better at the soft sciences than the hard sciences and mathematics, an utterly stupid statement.) Anyway to come back to my original point, there was a time when we would be proud of the number of women on our Executive Management Team. That changed a couple of years ago.
As regards, high ranking technical women. I think the proportion of women who are Distinguished Engineers at Sun has probably been going up. (This not backed by actual numbers but from thinking about the women DE's that I am aware of today versus what was 10 years ago.)
It would be interesting to see how the representation of women in various sectors at Sun has changed over time, and try and fix the skew to the extent possible. (I am sure that is happening, but I wanted to voice my support for it.)
Part of the issue is that, in the US at least, support for women's issues in the workplace -- leave of absence for rearing children etc., flexible work schedules -- are not as common as in some of the European economies. Sun is much better than most companies I know of, in supporting their employees (including women employees) balance life and work.
That is one of the many reasons, I think Sun is a GPTW, even if it's not on the official list for the US this year.
Posted by 10+ on March 11, 2008 at 11:38 AM PDT #
They must have sent all the surveys to people who work in Services.
Posted by Anon on March 26, 2008 at 09:11 AM PDT #
Sun is a great place to work if you are one of the many managers that work at Sun. As a foot soldier, you are bombarded by goals (relevant or not) from all sort of managers trying to protect their jobs. The problems with Sun is that we have to many redundant managers that have no business making for Sun but milking it and make life miserable for everyone that works under them.
Posted by A GSS employee... on March 26, 2008 at 09:51 AM PDT #
I think it bears repeating what the "11 year employee" commented on...
If this survey of 400 people is not statistically significant, then neither have the years of (positive) surveys been significant either. "There are lies, d&*n lies, and statistics." There are also just too many darn surveys of questionable value.
Posted by 9 year employee on March 26, 2008 at 10:05 AM PDT #
So, I'd like to make two points about what I think are dissatisfiers.
1) Stock price. Sun does all the right things and our ESPP/Options go underwater faster that a pinged submarine. Major morale killer for many people I know.
2) The fun *culture* is gone. I don't mean doughnuts or t-shirts or other things that cost money. I'm talking about how we interact with each other:
- A few years back someone sent out an obviously hoaxed email on April 1st. ITOPS came down on them like a ton of bricks. Sun used to be famous for our pranks and now we get this.
- my login used to be my last name. Now it is my initials and my ID, something catchy like AO1234. It is apparently now corporate policy to give out these new logins and not permit changes to the old style ones. This is just one person's opinion, but I think these new logins are dehumanizing and antithetical to the esprit d'corps that used to be here. "Hey, tm52000, how are you today?" ;)
Posted by Ann O.N. O'Muss on March 26, 2008 at 11:04 AM PDT #
I have been with Sun PS for 10+ year. I have always felt like Sun PS is a second class citizen in the company. That would make sense, we make boxes that blink green lights. Not a services company. I agree one of the commenters above. Sun is no longer a great place to work. I am comfortable (or institutionalized) working here. The only 2 reasons I collect a paycheck from Sun is because of great people and institutionalized comfort level.
Posted by Sun PS on March 26, 2008 at 12:15 PM PDT #
I love Sun. Just do not see the love back.
Posted by 9 years on March 26, 2008 at 02:23 PM PDT #
Terry
I agree with you
"And we are a relationship company"
It is not what you know - who you know - counts in Sun.
Posted by relationship company!!! on March 26, 2008 at 02:28 PM PDT #
sun may not be the PERFECT place to work in, but to me it sure is a GREAT place to be in.
respect for individuals, respect for the community and respect for the earth - thats great.
one more thing, lets hope sun's mgmt works towards getting Sun into the top 100 list !!!!!
Posted by 10 years in sun on March 26, 2008 at 09:11 PM PDT #
@not sure how long i'll last
@Terry McKenzie
I've got to whole heartedly agree with "not sure how long i'll last".
I've been at Sun for more than 7 years now, and I do see exactly what he/she is referring too.
In private conversation I hear the same sentiments from my co-workers. Would I speak up openly to management ? Most certainly NOT.
The "loud mouths" are no longer at Sun, mostly let go in the RIFs gone by.
BTW, I am based in Europe. This is not just a US thing.
Posted by reality on March 27, 2008 at 01:56 AM PDT #
I've noticed a few comments saying, "awww... it was just 400 people that's too small a number to take seriously, we love Sun, Sun ROCKS !!!"
I'm disappointed, yet not surprised that folks will try to convince themselves that there is no problem rather than try to solve it.
How many employees are there in the US, what does a sample size of 400 RANDOMLY chosen employees represent ?
Do you think the people at Forbs are idots that know nothing about statistics ?
Do you think 400 randomly chosen people, just by chance happen to think the same thing? Or is it that it's a representation of the population in general ?
Terry McKenzie:
I've never heard your name before today (I've been here for 7+ years).
I hope you take the Forbes survey seriously. I hope you try to do something about it.
For the folks in services that complain, you should look into that too.
You should also look into why working as Sun is such a different experience for 'higher' level managers and sales people than it is for those folks on ground level.
@Ann O.N. O'Muss
I'm sorry, but your comments are so irrelevant to how most people feel, you can even imagine it.
This is certainly not what a "ground level" engineer would say. More like the words of a manager, probably at least 2nd level.
I want to be respected, I want a competitive salary, I wasn't more than 1/2% slary increase a year (then being told i should count myself lucky that i wasn't laid off) ,I want instructor lead training, I want to be recognized and rewarded for hard work, not for being friends with the right manager.
Did I mention respect? Don't treat professional highly educated engineers like the guy who cleans your front lawn.
As for fun? Well, that's so far down on the list I can't even see it.
Posted by reality2 on March 27, 2008 at 06:03 AM PDT #
> Posted by Point-Counter-Point on March 10, 2008
>at 05:05 PM PDT #
>
>Way to go, Sun!
>
>Who needs the GPTW survey!
I love it ! Classic old school Sun management.
What? The survey says the employees aren't happy!?
Well the survey must be wrong !!! We admired after all, which always and unequivocally equals happy employees !!!
Point-Counter-Point: "We love Sun !! Sun ROCKS !!! Sun ROCKS !!! YEAH !!!! YEAH !!!! YEAH !!!"
*** Crashes two empty beer cans on his head.
> Anyway, you and anyone else can always email me
> at terry.mckenzie@sun.com if you prefer to
> continue 1:1....Or just post comments and if I
> have something not trite to say, I'll try to
> respond. Fair?
For fear of loosing my job, I personally wouldn't contact you directly.
Posted by 192.18.1.36 on March 27, 2008 at 06:16 AM PDT #
Would I say Sun is a great place to work? I don't think so.
My favorite question on the annual employee satisfaction survey is "if you were offered a similar position with similar pay, would you stay at Sun." I always answer definitely not.
There are many great things about Sun. Our work environment is flexible, and out compensation is quite good.
Here's what's really bad about Sun, and it's so unfortunate, because it doesn't have to be this way: management is just bad. I work in the Software division. Our upper management (directors and VPs) are petty and bossy. We're treated like cogs in a factory, not like highly educated engineers.
We see massively stupid decisions made all the time based on political whims, not technical merit.
After 10 years, it has become unbearably oppressive. I optimistically hope that it will change, but I'm routinely disappointed.
By now you must be wondering why I stay. I won't be here much longer. My optimism has run out.
Posted by 10 year employee on March 27, 2008 at 11:05 AM PDT #
@reality2
I think you live in a very different reality than I do. For one thing, I *am* a "ground level" engineer - MTS3, in fact. So, your perception of "most people" may not be as accurate as you think. After all, how many people at Sun do you work with? Is it greater than, say, 400? There is no reason to believe that the sample of "people known by reality2" is any more or less typical of Sun than the 400 chosen for the survey.
You say you want a competitive salary - has it occurred to you that the stock price is part of our compensation package? There are bills I'd like to pay and a nice ESPP check would go a long way to settling them. When the stock price is rising, employees are under less financial stress which makes Sun a better place to work.
Similarly, I too wish be respected, have classroom training and a number of other things. My previous posting about fun was not intended to be exclusive, but more a response to the previous posts about "the good old days" of doughnuts and t-shirts, which aren't likely to come back.
BTW, I am curious about your claiming to have not seen Terry's name before. You say you've been here for 7+ yet this comment string is in response to Volume 5, Issue 2 of Terry's "Sunwweb Post" which is sent to allsun@sun.com. Have you not seen a single previous edition in all your time here?
Posted by Ann O.N. O'Muss on March 28, 2008 at 07:02 AM PDT #
I don't work for Sun, but I worked for Boeing not long ago, and I can draw many parallels from my experiences there, in a highly educated community of hundreds of thousands of employees (yes a few more than Sun), and what I've heard and read about Sun. Take them for what they are worth.
First, I'll share a story. Boeing has made significant efforts to attract the valuable young, smart engineers from great programs around the country. Like Sun, Boeing doesn't have too much trouble attracting people because its name goes a long way. Add great benefits, comfortable pay, and a balanced work life culture, and the applications pile in. Fast forward a couple years in their careers. A friend of mine who was identified as one of the highest potential employees in the company was recently asked by a senior executive "who all the other high potential employees are" in the company. His answer: they all quit a couple years ago. All, I repeat, all of them had left the company. They'd only stay to build their resumes, get an MBA or other advanced degree part time (Boeing pays 100% of tuition, no questions asked), and then offer a cordial farewell.
I don't for one second believe that their reasons for leaving came down to money, titles, or any of these artificial aspects of one's career that contribute to the Hedonic Treadmill effect that we experience (this is explained in Wikipedia, basically that the more we have the further the point at which we believe we'll experience happiness appears). They left, and Boeing is not a great place to work, because their work wasn't satisfying.
When I say satisfying, I don't mean it in the sense that working for Phillip Morris might, but that there weren't direct ties to mind blowing work and positive reinforcement, beyond getting a Boeing t-shirt or other corporate gift that ended up in garage sales. The inevitable peanut buttering of bonuses and raise pools tied to a stock price over which they arguably had zero direct control of a typical Fortune-scale enterprise had dissolved the positive reinforcement that would enable them to feel truly appreciated for their most noteworthy accomplishments. So they would quit, navigate choppy political waters for positive reinforcement, or just sit back and get real comfortable (I knew people who would sleep at work who had worked for the company for 25+ years).
So how can a company like Google be such a great place to work? It is by accident? Is it because their HR is damned good at guessing what employees want? I don't think so. I think that the best companies are just really, really good at listening to employees and integrating positive reinforcement systems that directly tie the best work with the rewards and self actualization we all seek.
I think that the beginning of this conversation has just begun at Sun, through this blog post... a testament to the open culture that has gotten Sun this far and enables its continued success. Sun just needs to do a lot more listening and responding (in action). The simple act of listening and making one feel as though he or she is making an impact has been proven to elevate the experience of happiness. I've heard of companies cutting pay to do more the environment, for example, and employee satisfaction going up... because they asked employees if it was something they wanted to do. It was even one of the employee's ideas. I hope that Sun can use this approach and information to catalyze many, many years of continued success and happy, fulfilling careers for years to come.
Best of luck,
Didn't last at Boeing
Posted by Observer and admirer of Sun on March 29, 2008 at 11:27 PM PDT #
There are at least 3 ways to assess how the wind is blowing. Go out side and feel it on your face, look at how far the trees are bending, or read the wind speed from an anemometer. The GPTW survey with 400 inputs is certainly one valid measure. While the industry environment is very tough, I think there are groups with in Sun that don't feel well managed. The focus on continuous improvements still seems to be missing and sacrificed for a senior VP's goal sheet. Feeling the wind on your face is the least accurate way to measure. Don't disregard the survey results, look at what they measure. I am not looking for dough nuts or tee shirts, but if I feel the work I do is genuinely valued and contributes to customer satisfaction, my assessment of working at Sun would be higher.
Posted by Observer the effects of the Wind on March 31, 2008 at 03:50 PM PDT #
Nice post...I enjoyed it!
cb
Posted by Charles Beckham on April 17, 2008 at 09:55 PM PDT #
Several people commented that they were disappointed in salary, stock price and opportunity issues at Sun. Perhaps part of that issue is that many have not realized that the primary business of Sun (servers and systems) is no longer a fast growth industry, but is in total flat or slow growth. Google and other new companies are in hypergrowth, which can go great for a while, but will at some point hit a wall. When hypergrowth companies hit the wall (1 yr, 5years, who knows), they typically have expanded in advance of sales and have to make severe staff cuts to recover. You won't know that you joined such a situation until 3-6 months after they hit the wall. So there is no career security even in hypergrowth.
In a fast growth industry, the tide rises so fast most boats are floating higher and it's easy to hand out benefits, raises, etc, even in sloppily managed companies. For a slow growth industry, a company only outgrows the industry by taking business directly from another company. That's much harder than just holding on to your customers while they expand. So past experience and expectations about career growth based on hypergrowth can be quite difficult to meet in a slow growth industry. But career development can be just as satisfying if you are focused on doing what it takes to succeed at your own work.
My point is that it's not Sun's management's fault that the industry has challenges. IBM, HP, and Dell (our lead competitors) all shared the same challenges and have had serious RIFs when the first Internet bubble burst. Our senior management is well aware of the issues and actively looking for ways to latch on to and sell to the new hypergrowth companies. And we are showing strong signs of success in the last few quarters. Sun's not immune to general economic trends, but I like our product lineup vs the competition for at least the next two years (beyond that's too foggy for meaningful predictions). So I'm one of those who's not likely to take matching job offer if it was made.
Your immediate management has a strong say in your job satisfaction. If you think they are an impediment, look on the internal job boards and see about transferring. Sun supports transfers better than most companies I know about. I'm sure that managers that lose too many people get close scrutiny when review time comes around.
I also like the open nature of information flow at Sun. Sometimes I allow myself to spend too much time sampling the info stream, (like now), but here I have the choice. At many companies, this sort of info is so well hidden you don't even have an idea of what you don't know.
PS. Any polling statistician will tell you that a correctly chosen random sample of 400 out of a large population is statistically significant with a margin of error of not more than x% most of the time. Yes, polls can be flawed or happen to be unrepresentative, but it's a mistake to start with the assumption that they aren't representative. The way a question is worded can have a substantial effect on the response though. Sun's internal polls don't always ask the questions that might reflect my concerns, while this external poll might be asking things in a different way.
Posted by industry observer/5 year Sun employee on April 25, 2008 at 11:51 AM PDT #
Does anyone know how we can get a list of companies who applied but did not make it?
Posted by Donna Burnette on May 13, 2008 at 07:24 AM PDT #